Pemi as a quality fishery

[TSmith]

I would love to hear from any one who has information or thoughts about making the pemi a quality fishery. I have heard from some from "old timers" such a Charlie Poole (Charlies Fly Tying in Bristol) that the river used to fish a lot better. Particularly bristol to franklin, which I think makes a fine float trip.

It seems that with such a large river, close to and accessible for so many people that it could be made better. Perhaps I'm a dreamer but it has such fishy looking water. Any feedback would be appreciated. They apparently have a Pemi Committee and getting a fisherman on board would be a way to voice our views. I don't care if you are into fly or gear so much as you are more for C&R and having a place that promises a quality fishery.

Todd

[opechee]

I agree with you. I have been fishing in the Pemi for about 8 years and feel it has tremendous potenial if managed right. I think the issues needing to be addressed are noted below.
1. The water gets to hot in the summer. Change the dams to drain from the bottom where the temperature is much cooler.
2. If you cannot control the temperature than stock it with fish tolerant of the temperature.
3. maintain the flow rate during fishing season to allow wading. Too many time after the river is stocked the water level rises and washes the fish away.
good luck

[TSmith]

Good points. Stay tuned. I want to get more feedback and those are excellent thoughts.

[Rick]

I fished it numerous times this year and was suprised at how much trash there is in and around the water.

I think a serious cleanup effort would be needed to make it into a good fishery.

[OTTER]

After nearly 60 years of going it alone, I finally joined a very imperfect organization: Trout Unlimited. And have gotten very involved. I found that going it alone , no matter how noble my goals, doesn't get much done; whether it is changing F&G rules, getting a section of river a special designation, cleaning up trash, etc.

There are also the Fly Fishing Federation and individual sportsman's clubs. Join an existing organization. Better still join two conservation groups. If they are not doing your particular thing, then become a subcommitte chairman of your pet passion and you will find others to join you. And in this world there is a little bit of "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours". So I volunteer for things I am not passionate about; which gets me help for projects I care about.

The fall/winter extended season on the Lamprey, Cocheco, and Isenglas Rivers could not have been done without an organization ( in this case GBTU) spearheading the drive. I have met with NHF&G on my own in the past with great ideas and got nowhere. Great ideas do not get the job done in the real world.

[Jim]

The Pemi from Bristol to Franklin and the Pemi/Merrimack from Franklin to Concord has some great water, unfortunately because of the Ayers Island and Franklin dams the water warms up to much. Minimum flows if there are any are regulated by FERC license agreements which can only be changed when the license is renewed, some are 50 years. So it is what it is, good in the fall, winter and spring and to warm in the summer., but that’s similar to a lot of the other rivers in the area. The Bristol to Franklin stretch is open to fishing all year so other than mid June to mid September when it warms up it provides good fishing; it’s easily accessible to the majority of the states population. A good spring fall hand and float stocking program could make the river an exceptional fishery. The last three years we’ve had major fall flooding, along with two years of spring floods. When it floods the river has been up over 40 feet in the Hill area. That’s not something that’s going to change, but it would be good to get a break. There’s been times when the rivers fished well from October into December but there’s no guarantees with nature. The upper Pemi in the North Woodstock to Campton area will usually hold fish all summer; the waters a lot cooler. It would be good to have a catch & release area 3-4 miles for single hook point, pinched barb, artificial lure area like the lower Androscoggin, it’s probably impossible to get a large section for fly fishing only. Getting a major regulation change requires local support, or in the case of the Androscoggin a health issue. I don’t know if the Ammonoosuc & Pemi TU chapters would support it but they have a good image and business support from the area.

[Steve H.]

I've always hoped that one day the "Pemi-Mack" from, as you state, Bristol to Concord would become a blue-ribbon fishery. I know that the water warms up in mid-summer and probably wouldn't support a self-sustaining population of brook trout or salmon. But what about brown trout? I'm sure that they are relatively tolerant of warmer, less oxygenated water than other salmonids. They are also more opportunistic feeders and don't rely as much on insect life, which I understand is not abundent in this stretch. I wonder if aggressive stocking of brown trout (float-stocked as they do on the Kennebec), instead of other species, would be a realistic way to improve the fishery. Even if it were a put-grow-take fishery, instead of put-take like with brookies and most rainbows, it would be better than what we have.

[lowwall]

I think work on the

"Pemi from Bristol to Franklin and the Pemi/Merrimack from Franklin to Concord"

Would be a great strech to concentrate on, Central location so everyone on the board would have a stake in the project.

I Know everyone here would like to have more places to fish till DEC!

What now? Try to get something going with the MMVTU? , The State, Biologists.

I think the first step should be trying to get a artificial only pinched barb CR strech then go from there.

Raise some cash stock some fish ( Browns), run a CR derby to sell some swag and raise some more cash, buy more fish etc. etc.

What do you guy's think

Otter , How did the Lamprey program get started initially.

[Steve H.]

I love the idea. I would do whatever I could to help get ALO regs and float-stocking on this stretch of river!!

[Grayghost 6]

There are some great looking sections along these two portions of the Pemi-Merrimack drainage. I've seen some of it over the years, but not all.

Question: On the Franklin to Bristol section - Has anyone ever yachted north/upriver from the southern to middle boatlaunches? Would it be worthwhile in your average v-hull with 8 hp outboard? Motor up a little, float back down. I know where the off-the-beaten path, but not exactly secret launch is located in my neck of the woods. Should be a nice ride in foliage, up past the old bridge.

Any other general fish stories from these sections, without revealing secret spots?

I don't know if float stocking really works, but it sounds like a great idea. If it is an effective method I suspect these rivers would prove it. I've read this method is being used on the lower Andro in Maine.

Thinking randomly this evening...

[Gerry]

Last year I put in at the Sanbornton ramp and motored all the way up river past where the Smith River hits the Pemi. The entire river up until a half mile from the Smith is wide, deep and very slow. Not trout habitat in any way.
From the dam in Brisol, all the way down past the Smith River, is really good habitat. Jim and I have had MANY multiple fish (broodstock salmon and big rainbows) days all the through November, as long as there aren't any floods, like the last two years.
The lower Andro is not stocked, floating or otherwise. I think it would be great to have a single hook artificial catch and release area in Bristol. Franklin already has a pretty strong regulation in place. Stocking rainbows from September through the following June and browns the rest of the time would be great. This is a beautiful stretch of river that has great potential.
tight lines,
Gerry

[Trout Hunter]

A good contact would be Great Bay TU www.greatbaytu.org
They went through the process of getting the Lamprey, Cocheco and Isinglass rivers special regulations(fall catch and release) and stocking rights. They might be able to lead you guys in the right direction.

[s2ary]

I'm in... Keep us posted on what to do.

[TSmith]

I belong to the Pemi chapter of TU. I'll do some asking around when the meets start up again and see what I can garner for info and perhaps who to contact at great bay TU. I continue to be encouraged by this post.

[OTTER]

As some of you know, I am the stocking chirman for Great Bay Trout Unlimited. ( This is my last year.)

Concerning flooding after a stocking and washing the fish away;
We stocked the Lamprey River last year and a week later had a flood of historic proportions into the woods and fields, etc. We figured the trout were gone. But 10 days after the flood subsided, the trout where there in large numbers in the same lies. The fishing was great right up to New Years day.

Concerning float stocking, I don't know exactly what section of the Andro Hayseed and Gerry were talking about. I believe upper section of Maine which would be downstream of NH ( Sherbourne, NH to Bethel, Me ) has been float stocked by Maine Fish and Game.

I was not in on the effort to put a section of the Lamprey ( and Cocheco and Isenglas) to a delayed harvest, catch and release, barbless hook fishery. I believe NHF&G bought into the plan partly because we offered to pay for the fish. I would say to email GBTU; check their web site for an address concerning getting started on the Pemi. The Pemi Chapter of TU would be a good way to get this started.

[Grayghost 6]

I can clarify the section of the Androscoggin that was float stocked. My casual description of "lower Andro in Maine" was not accurate and caused confusion. Sorry about that. I should have said "upper Andro across the border in Maine." :oops:

I read an artical entitled: "River on the Rebound" in the May 2007 issue of Down East magazine. The artical describes float stocking of this section in 2006 by Maine IF&W. It also tells about making a certain area C&R, ALO. If it works there these methods might be worthwhile on some sections over here.

Gerry, thanks for the desciption of the boat trip. I'll have to try it this fall, if we don't go flood mode.

Hayseed

[/b]

[FLY FIS]

It's my understsanding that the Army Core of Engineers located at the Ayers Island Dam are the ones responsible for that entire flood control area. I understood that they, with NH F&G were the ones that built the two predominant stocking areas on the river. Both are on the east side on Coolidge Woods Rd. They also built the real nice gravel road into the area at Profile Falls, from the falls to the Pemi itself. All three of these are OK to wade depending on water levels, and certainally make a great spot for canoe or drift boat access. As said earlier, it is very dependant on mother nature as to the water flow. I may be wrong, but I thought that both dams also produced some electricity, other that just for flood control. Usually that means that a certain amount of water has to pass through the dam for that power. I know that in Franklin, as it starts to get dark at night, and people turn on their lights and kitchen stoves and washers and driers, the horn blows, you want to pay attention because the water can come up fast. All that being said, and with respect for Mother Nature, it's still a real good area to spend the day, to enjoy the real wild scenery, of that flood control area. The Broodstock Salmon stocking has been good there for the last several years, but as said the rains have done their damage and blown the fish out. I would like to see some more trout stocking done on the river during the spring and summer. I think the river is big enough that it could keep a year round habitat of trout. I know that some of the Brood Stock salmon do stay in the river from year to year, judging by the colored tags, as I have caught Salmon from prior stockings. This section of river would be a great area to concentrate work on. It's a wonderful area, a great big wide river, and should be a great fishery with some help. Great Idea!!!

[TSmith]

Fly Fis,
Thanks for your thoughts. We'll need all the support we can muster on this one.

Todd

[mer]

Otter, NH must stock a smarter strain of trout than MA. A few years ago after stocking the Nissi, it got flooded out. When the water receded, there were lots of trout in the the trees and not many more in the water.

[OTTER]

mer;

I am sure you are correct about the Nissi although I don't know that river. And I doubt NH fish are smarter. I would speculate that the contour of the river banks ( among other variables) would be important in how far fish spread out and are subsequently stranded in outlying pockets.

By chance the Lamprey in the section we stock has steep banks and did not have adjacent flooded fields. Perhaps that was why when the water receded the fish could easily move back down into their normal lies. Our concern was whether they would be washed far downstream and so spread out as to be unavailable to our anglers. Turns out they were still there as evidenced by excellent fishing in the stocked area.

[Cadoda]

Count me in on the Pemi project. I'm interested. I love fishing up there, and it's not because I catch much. I was up there today and fished both above and below the bridge in Bristol. That river has so much good trout habitat and so few fish.

[FLY FIS]

I'm also very happy to have found this site. Thanks again LOWWALL! It's nice to talk to those with the same interests as well as having those interests in the same geographical area as I'm interested in, meaning New Hampshire. One of the first Atlantic Salmon I ever caught was at Sewalls Falls in Concord, back in 1994. I was amazed that the Merrimack River would ever be clean enough to have the Broodstock Salmon stocked there. Just to think what a few short years can do! And now, here we are talking about just a few miles up river and we could achieve a blue robbon fishery for that section of water. I have often wondered if the State really sometimes understands the great and wonderful area that we do live in, as well as the financial gain for the future. Reports earlier this year were NH F&G in financial trouble. Well, maybe, we have to spend a little before we make a little. The Merrimack and the Pemi are two of the best rivers in central NH and we need to help these two realize the potential!!! I,m in!

[fatfisheater]

Actually, the Merrimack and the Pemigewassett are the same river only different sections. The Pemi starts in Franconia Notch and when the Wini River flows into it, at that point it becomes the Merrimack and continues it's flow to the Atlantic. Just though you'd want to know.

[FLY FIS]

fatfisheater: That's exactly right, and that's why it is so important to start working on them to improve the fishery. Just think of the migratory prospects if fish could swim from Plum Island all the way to Profile and Echo Lakes, or any of the other numerous tributaries to that huge water shed. We have a wonderful opportunity right now to take one area in that huge watershed and, maybe, just maybe, make it into the blue ribbon fishery that it could be. One step further so we, our kids, and our grand kids can have great fishing right here at home.

[FLY FIS]

Got a little more info on the Brood-stock fishery today and also some info on this topic of making the Pemi into a better fishery. There has been a Habitat Biology study done by NH F&G on the water temperature etc. for the Pemi and also for several of the streams that flow into the Pemi in the stretch from Ayers Island dam to Franklin. I'm going to try and get more info on this on Monday from F&G. Due to high water temps and low water conditions we may have to wait a while longer for the Brood-stock stocking. These fish get very stressed out during the ride in the truck to be stocked. It is not good conditions for the fish if the water temperature in the river is a lot higher than the water temperature at the hatchery, as well as the flow of water bringing oxygen to the fish which helps them recover faster. They have to examine these conditions before they stock, otherwise the fish won't survive. Salmon need water movement and have to swim to survive, pushing water through their gills to extract the oxygen that they need. Even the tank on the stocking truck that they use for the Salmon is round so that they can be in constant motion in the truck. Lets hope for a little rain and some cooler days and nights and we'll see some fish stocked soon.

[Banks10]

Just think of the migratory prospects if fish could swim from Plum Island all the way to Profile and Echo Lakes, or any of the other numerous tributaries to that huge water shed.

Is there a possibility of that happening? Is it realistic for migrating fish to run back up this river? Obviously the dams are a huge obstical - would fish ladders/elevators work here. Huge expense, yes, but what a dream.
I don't know a lot on this topic, but am interested to learn if it would be even possible to get migratory fish back in the Merrimack/Pemi.

I fished it for the first time in Franklin this weekend and had a blast, though it was warm on Saturday.

[Solid]

Is there a possibility of that happening? Is it realistic for migrating fish to run back up this river? Obviously the dams are a huge obstical - would fish ladders/elevators work here. Huge expense, yes, but what a dream.
I don't know a lot on this topic, but am interested to learn if it would be even possible to get migratory fish back in the Merrimack/Pemi.
I fished it for the first time in Franklin this weekend and had a blast, though it was warm on Saturday.


No

[s2ary]

If no; That should be something on our longterm radar screen to fix.

I thought that the passage structures on the Merrimack were addressed back in the 80's and 90's. Does anyone know for sure?

[Grayghost 6]

I'm going to re-post a messsage that disappeared with the server change. I used to work for PSNH in the late 70's and 80's. I was a power plant guy at the hydro stations in Bow & Hooksett, as well as that big, belching, air polluting behemoth also in Bow.

At one time there were fish ladders in place at Amoskeag Hydro (Manchester), Hooksett Hydro, and Garvis Falls Hydro (Bow). This was to accomodate the original Atlantic Salmon Restoration Program that F&G was starting in the early 90's. (Remember when we were supposed to have a self-sustaining atlantic salmon population by the "turn of the century"?) We'd be counting all those returning salmon at the Amoskeag Fishway...

I don't know if the fishways built then are all still in place, or if they were completed in Franklin or Bristol too. I don't know what kind out flow management strategy would be necessary to promote a better fishery in the Franklin to Manchester segments of the Merrimack, or the Plymouth to Franklin segments of the Pemi, but there may be a few pieces already in place, simply not being utilized. I'd like to learn more about possibilities for river management, as well as other biological factors. I wouldn't blow it off as impossible just yet. A daunting challenge perhaps, but possibly worth the exploration.

Somone else may know more about the current status at the power plants
than I do, I hope so!

Hayseed

[Banks10]

How come salmon (and other species) have been successfully re-introduced to rivers and in others it doesn't work. Is it water quality? money?

[twillirish]

Although the thought of atlantic run salmon returning up stream sounds good, the dam in Lowell ends it. There is a fish ladder at the dam in Lawrence, but Lowell has nothing. I do not hold out much hope that the Mass Fish and Game will invest money to improve the dam with a ladder, or work to remove the dam altogether.

[Gerry]

There is a fish ladder at the Pawtucket Dam in Lowell. At the Essex Dam in Lawrence there is a "Fish Lift" which is like an elevator. All upstream passage in Lawrence is via the fish lift. Salmon and a lot of the shad are captured at the fish lift and trucked upstream. The salmon are retained at the USFWS National Fish Hatchery in Nashua. the shad are released upriver above the dams. Striped bass get released immediately above the Essex Dam in Lawrence and have been sighted as far north as Manchester. I am not certain about river herring, but I think they are released above the Essex Dam, as well. There has been an ongoing discussion, mini-controversy about whether or not the fish ladder in Lowell is effective. But noinetheless, there IS a fish ladder there.
The ironic thing is that the most sophisticated, well-design fish ladder on the Merrimack is in Manchester at the Amoskeag Fishway. Ironic, because almost no anadomous fish make it up there to use it. (Other than an eel or lamprey, now and then.) This link shows the fish lift in Lawrence in action with some of our TU chapter members volunteering.
http://www.merrimacktu.org/atlantic_salmon_returns_new_hampshire.htm
Gerry

[Banks10]

It would seem to me (and I don't know a whole lot on this topic at all) that perhaps this could be done. However, I am wondering if there is more at play than just dams as an obstruction from having salmon and other fish return up the Merrimack. I am trying to do more research because I know nothing on this topic, but I would like to know if it there are environmental obstructions or other issues at play from preventing these fish from making their way back up river.
If it is only a dam issue then why can't this problem be solved? If it's money then I think it is definitely solvable. If it is just money, how come more isn't being done about it?
Anyone know more? Again, I am still learning about this stuff so any insight would peak my interest.
I am thinking about heading over to the Amoskeag Fishway after the fall fishing slows down to learn more about this topic. Perhaps they would have more information about all of this.

[s2ary]

I'm game as well.

One gut feeling I've always had about fish lifts and elevators is that only the dumb fish get caught. The smarter fish don't fall for the trap, and in that way we are selecting the low quality fish to breed.

I have no reason to feel that way other than a gut feeling, but it just kinda makes sense. The smarter fish out smart the trap but get left behind at the dam.

[Banks10]

s2ary,
You may have something there. Perhaps fish ladders are better.
Prehaps, unbeknownst to me, this topic has been discussed and discarded.
But...
I will try to find a time on my calendar sometime in November to head over to the Amoskeag Fishway. They must have some research going on about this topic and should be able to provide some insight on the matter. Admission is cheap ($5 I think). If anyone is interested in joining me feel free to PM me. I'll be sure to bring a notepad to take some notes and I'll provide a full report upon my return.
Maybe the possibility of fish returning up the Merrimack to spawn is just a dream, but until proof shows otherwise, I'm very interested in obtaining some education on this issue.
If there's even the slightest possibility of future fish migration in the Merrimack, to me it's worth exploring and worth an effort.

[Gerry]

Banks,
You live in Manchester, so the Amoskeag Fishway should be an easy stop-in for you. We had our May TU meeting there and the tour we got was very informative. If this sort of thing interests you, you should come to our TU meetings. We meet the second Tuesday of the month at 7PM at the Sweeney American Legion Post on Maple Street across from Gill Stadium. This month we had a presentation from Dianne Timmins, fishery biologist from NH Fish and Game about her telemetry study of wild brook trout in northern NH (which we helped fund through the purchase of some radio transmitters) and about didymo invasive alga. We do lots of projects with Fish and Game and USFWS. We help electroshock survey for wild brook trout and salmon; sponsor 3 schools in the USFWS Adopt-a-salmon program; help out at the USFWS salmon hatchery with fish spawning and hatchery tours; and a lot of other things. We have opportunities to hear from and work with NH DES on dam removal; USFWS on the Atlantic salmon restoration program; White Mountain National forest on wild brook trout surveys and stream connectivity/culvert issues; NH Fish and Game with wild brook trout and other issues. We have many community outreach and education programs: we run the Fly Fish NH show every March; we run free Learn to Fly Fish classes jointly with the St. of NH Let's Go Fishing program; support the Nashua Library Fishing seminar series in January; and quite a few other projects, such as scholarships for high school students with an interest in cold water ecology. Not only you , but anybody else is always welcome to come to our meetings and participate in our projects. We are always looking for new stream habitat improvement opportunities, especially in the Souhegan and Piscataquog Rivers, which are in our "territory." I didn't intend for this post to be so long, but just an open invitation to join with other people who are motivated to improve cold water habitat and improve fishing opportunities for all of us and our grandkids.
tight lines,
Gerry Crow
Merrimack River Valley TU
www.merrimacktu.org
PS you will find similar opportunities in TU chapters across the state. You will find them listed here http://www.flyfishinginnh.com/tu_nh.php

[Banks10]

Sounds good Gerry, I'll see you there.
I'm glad that there is already interest and things being done on this topic.