Hooking Injuries

[OTTER]

Since the issue of hooking injuries is central to the NHF&G's reluctance to extend fishing seasons, I believe it merits a separate topic. Many issues were brought up in Over My Waders post. Let's deal with them one at a time. The following is a statement I included in my last post and is in fact from an email I received this week from a member of that department:

"The argument that the department biologist use most strongly against the extended catch & release seasons is hooking injury. Apparently, hook injured salmon have been seen in numbers going up to 25-30% in the salmon netting for brood stock in the fall. They cite data that these hook injured fish subsequently grow more slowly, and achieve lower weights for given year class than non-hook injured fish, and are concerned that extending the fishing season will increase this already high percentage of hook injured fish even more."

Let me ask you all this question:

If you have caught salmon at Lake Winnipesaukee what has your experience been in terms of the percentage of salmon you have caught which exhibited hook injury? I have not seen a single salmon I have caught that had a hook injury. I wasn't looking for hook injuries but I think I would have seen one as I released a fish and especially in cases where I occaisionally kept a fish. So how many or what percent of salmon have you noticed with hook injuries? Let's start there.

No matter the response, I would not infer that the NHF&G personnel were in any way misreporting what they saw. But if there is a large difference in what anglers around the state have observed then there might be some other issue such as that of getting a representative sample. ( Which of course is essential.) The conclusions of the Alaska Study can be similarly questioned at a later date.

[trouthunternh53]

Last Sunday I attended the Salmon Sunday in Melvin Village. I witnessed several Salmon that were netted showing not only single hook wounds but several that had multiple wounds. My observation was that the fish with wounds were noticeably smaller that the other fish in the same age group. I found F&G too be a knowledgeable group of individuals. I am sure that thet are bombarded with many of our theories and this argument has been going on for some time now. I for one believe the the Landlock fishery is the best in New England. Once in awhile F&G deserves an attaboy instead of ther usual kick in the pants from the arm chair biologists!!!!

[OTTER]

I will not get off NHF&G's back until they allow some extended season fishing for LL Salmon. ( The month of October at Merrymeeting is not sufficient.) I like a lot of others have no interest in trolling for salmon or ice fishing for salmon or catching them in the spring on smelt and,grubs and worms. This is where those hooked damaged fish come from. Undersized salmon tossed back in Wolfeboro and other places with barbed hooks ripped out of their mouth cause plenty of damage. We all have witnessed that. Barbless hooks by fly fishers cause vitually none.

How about answering my question?

[getthenet!]

I catch around one hundred LLsalmon give or take each year. I know because I write it down. In fact, I do it all on foot. Every time I catch a salmon I take a very good look at the fish. Things I am looking for are measurements such as length and width, fin clippings and hook injuries. I fish the lakes region exclusively for these fish. To be honest, about 50% of the fish I catch have very obvious hook wounds. Its not uncommon to catch a 4 or 5 year old that has had its growth severely stunted. That is my experience though. I also attended salmon Sunday and witnessed hook wounds in numerous fish. Actually it was more than I would have ever thought. It’s a testament to catch and release. But what would happen if the fish had more hook injury because the season was extended? You want to know something interesting? I talked to a lot of people at salmon Sunday and was hard pressed to even find anyone that fishes for salmon! hmmmm weird.... Perhaps people that have such a drive to fish for LLsalmon when there on there redds in NOV should attend such an informative event. I think you would be surprised on how knowledgeable Fish and Game Biologist are. They can politely explain and show you why an extended season would not be a good idea in most areas. Oh and by the way... You complain about not having a chance to fish for LLsalmon in the fall. Well where are you every year when I start catching LLsalmon on foot the first week of Sept! Last fall I landed 35 salmon before October 15th in various locations that are legal. I’m happy with two months to pursue these fish. You should be to. We live near the best LLsalmon fishery in all of NE! Lets keep it that way.

[OTTER]

Get the Net; Thanks for your input. That is what I am looking for. With the cost of gas and addicted to fishing every day, I am still chasing stripers in my back yard while you are catching salmon. I envy you.

I am looking for more eye witness response but I would still ask whether barbless hooks cause this damage. And if not, I assume that it is not politically possible to change any rules which would reduce hook damage even if one of the methods I mentioned could be proved to be the main cause.

[getthenet!]

No problem, I would be interested to know how barb less hooks effect these fish as well. I actually heard a theory that they are just as harmful because they can penetrate deeper without a barb. Makes you wonder, but I have no idea. That would be another question for one of our very knowledgeable NH fish and game biologists. End your striper season a little earlier and make some rounds to different areas on our beautiful big lakes and I think you will be surprised! This topic is a double edge sword anyway you look at it. I personally can argue it both ways. However I have come except a closed season for Salmon. Actually all it does is get me to explore some new water in other states which is a lot of fun and very productive!

[s2ary]

Here is where I play devils advocate. :twisted:

So where's the beef? Fish that get hooked and released are smaller than fish that haven't been hooked. It is still a whole lot better to be stunted than pushing up daisies. After all isn't that what is supossed to happen? A fishery is developed and utilized in a sustainable manner and the proof is in the hooking scars. So a fish gets hooked 4 times in its lifetime, has four scares andis 1/3 smaller than a fish that never was hooked.

Fish never stop growing so even in the long run, if the fishery is catch and release it doesn't matter how manner times a fish is caught it still keeps growing.

It comes down to ethics, responsible anglers do not fish over redds. Period.

There is only one logical argument based on stunted fish and sustainability. Total egg production by a female is based on body mass. Larger females produce more eggs. The only problem with that is where do you draw the line? Presumably the damage comes from the hook wound regardless of the time of year.

I'd like to see more fall and winter fisheries so you can see where my point of view is. So from this perspective, where is the beef? Overall the average sized fish is 10-20 or even 30% smaller, but through ethical managment you have a sustainable year round fishery.

[sbeausol]

here are some interesting articles on the topic:

Link one (http://dnr.wi.gov/org/es/science/inventory/TroutHooking.pdf)

Link two (http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-abstract&doi=10.1577%2F1548-8675%281992%29012%3C0634%3AHMOTSW%3E2.3.CO%3B2)

link three (http://www.absc.usgs.gov/research/Fisheries/Alagnak/catch_and_release.htm)

The bottom line: treble hooks are bad news, followed by barbed single hooks, then barbless. There is no difference between single hook fly and single hook artificial.

If you want to reduce hook injury, then you need to get rid of treble hooks. If you extend the season on salmon, more salmon will have hook injuries, however the extent of such injuries isn't clear. I think the only way to find out would be to try and find out.

My guess is that the effects off extending salmon season w/single hook barbless won't really have much of an effect on the overall health of the fishery, but it will have an effect. If F&G was concerned with hooking injury then they should start by eliminating treble hooks...

[OTTER]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Over my waders posted 4 articles on the previous topic that started this new post.

The first one about Alaska concerned migratory Rainbow trout which have a 3 week period to eat salmon eggs and which exhibited a reduction in weight when repeatedly caught in that period. It expressly said that this was not applicable to resident rainbow trout in typical river settings.

The third article contained the results of many studies including the following statements:
" This study supports the hypothesis that adult salmonids can be captured multiple times with high survival and no effect on growth rates."

" Survival of rainbow trout captured by barbless....single and treble hooks .... was greater than 98%."

" Survival of rainbow trout caught by trolling different gears which captured fish at different depths, varied from 84.7 to 97.8 % with the greatest survival occurring for fish caught on gear in shallow water."
============================================
Articles 2 and 4 were about methodology and did not report findings.
============================================

I have read these articles before and would say thank you for posting them because they in fact support my stated positions quite emphatically in terms of both mortality and growth rates when using BARBLESS hooks.
And they point to trolling with other gear as a more serious issue which I also mentioned.

[sbeausol]

so otter, how to you propose we get the season extended?

[lowwall]

Been talking to MFFA about this and a ton of other things, hope to get some details soon. Was not going to post it but WTF
__________________________________________________ _______

2.2 Project: Winnipesauke and Sunapee Season Extension

Objective: Extend the season in both Lakes Winnipesauke and Sunapee to NOV30. Tribs with spawning activity would remain closed

Regulation Changes: OCT15-ICE IN, Single hook artificial lure: (barbless artificial lure with one single hook with not more than 1 hook point)
C&R. Tribs with spawning activity would remain closed.

Opinions:
(JH\MFFA): I see no reason why we cannot extend the season on these lakes
like our neighboring states do. Salmon and rainbows enter tribs in the fall and spring to spawn. I am not suggesting fishing these tribs, unless already open, like the Merrymeeting R and the Newfound R. Only the lakes. Perhaps an extended season where, from October 1 to ice-in, it's FF and single-hook, single point lures (no bait) and C&R. If they really want to restrict it, to get things started, we could accept wade fishing only!

(MN\FFNH): Prefer single hook artificial lure: (barbless artificial lure with one single hook with not more than 3 hook points).

[lowwall]

Deleted, If Trout Hunter Posted in this thread is not to be tacken lightly!

[BugChucka]

I'm strongly opposed to an extended Landlocked Salmon season on any tributary where the fish have an opportunity to re-enter lakes. I think it is in the fisheries best interest to rest these types of waters for the short period of time we already do. I'm also opposed to opening fishing in the spawning months where the fish can not re-enter if it is proven that they are attempting to spawn, which is pretty easy to prove. Why? Look at the fouling and snagging taking place on MA's stillwater in November for example.

It comes down to ethics, responsible anglers do not fish over redds. Period.

I know of several places I could see being opened to C&R after spawning season. These are spots where the fish have no chance of long term survival and usualy open to the masses April 15th. The fish are cleaned out anyway and that is that. Opening these to C&R Barbless AFO after spawning season would make sense to me.

I'm interested in hearing more about the proposed extended seasons on the lakes. I see bass guys on the lakes in the fall and am sure they're catching salmon. Would a few fly fisherman really hurt the overall population/fishery...I don't know?

We have a world class LL Salmon fishery right now, I know that. A fishery able to please us and all the other types of anglers. That is because the fishery is being managed properly and F&G should be applauded for their work.

[OTTER]

BugChucka. I am confused. In NH I do not believe any true spawning or reproduction actually takes place. What do you consider the prespawning and postspawning periods to be? And what do you mean by re-entering the lakes? Using the Merrymeeting river as an example can you help me understand what you are suggesting?

[trouthunter]

I share the same view point as Bug, I cant get over how many people just fish for LLS after October 15th in places like the Merrymeeting! I believe that I fish the same areas as gethenet!.... I had an outstanding season via a topo and my own two feet.....

With a trophy LLS program such as we have in NH the last thing that we need is opening the place to fall fishing.....

I do see the viewpoint that people have in terms of others "bass fishing" out on the lakes but once again its boils down to ethics and pushing the law in terms of grey areas....

Quote:
It comes down to ethics

[BugChucka]

Otter,

I'm referring to areas where the fish enter because of their natural spawning urges in the fall, like on the Merrymeeting. Here, the fish can come and go freely. They come into the river at roughly the same time every year because it is biologicaly embedded in them to do so.

In many cases the fish are triggered, they migrate to areas of increased current, and wind up below dams where they are isolated from the lake where the smelt they need to sustain is located. Even if trapped, November isn't exactly the most ethical month to be fishing for them in these areas in my opinion.

I'm no expert, but I believe LL Salmon are staging to spawn the second they start entering the tributaries. We already can fish for them in a couple places up until OCT 31st. I consider the month of November in the Lakes Region to be the actual "spawning period" even if it doesn't take place, but I've heard very reliable accounts of places where true natural spawning takes place. If a spot like this was broadcasted to everybody I doubt the spawning salmon would benefit.

I have as much to understand as anyone else in this matter and the better we all understand it, the better our fisheries will be.

[getthenet!]

Bug,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. For the record, my own experience fishing has proven that there is some natural reproduction happening in a few of the tribs. You would be amazed what a small elk hair caddis will bring to hand in the headwaters of these streams. After talking to biologists at salmon Sunday they told me it is a very small percentage. Many times its happening but the chances of these fish making back to lake without getting caught or sucked down by a bass or pickerel is slim. Good to know the potential is there. Also good to keep the locations under your hat like bug said! Anyone else have any info on this?

[s2ary]

Bug,
I agree with a lot of what you are saying. For the record, my own experience fishing has proven that there is some natural reproduction happening in a few of the tribs. You would be amazed what a small elk hair caddis will bring to hand in the headwaters of these streams. After talking to biologists at salmon Sunday they told me it is a very small percentage. Many times its happening but the chances of these fish making back to lake without getting caught or sucked down by a bass or pickerel is slim. Good to know the potential is there. Also good to keep the locations under your hat like bug said! Anyone else have any info on this?

Than what is the issue with fishing for them?

[wet_fly_action]

Winnipesaukee get something like 20,000 salmon stocked every year. There are probably runs in many of the tributaries but the majority of the fish head up the merrymeeting trying to get back to the hatchery where they were hatched and raised and stack up below the dam where we can fish for them catch and release only, a nice little artificial fishery which is a lot of fun. I believe F&G is unwilling to extend the season for fear of the added stress of being caught repeatedly and possible hook injuries "thinning the herd" too much rather than protecting any possible spawning. Summer fishing in the lake itself is the priority here, the extra 2 weeks are a nice little bone that they've tossed us but I wouldn't expect any more.
The season closes for the lakes on sept 30 because the salmon will be on a prespawn feeding frenzy near the mouths of rivers and extremely easy to catch. I know a couple of these spots are closed to all fishing after the 30th for this reason.
Kind of seems like a nice little catch 22 as far as trout go, they want you to think there would be no reproduction in most places and that we need F&G to supply us with fish, yet we also need to rivers closed to protect them while spawning........
There seems to be some loopholes in the logic but one point which sticks with me- MA has no closed season, and the fishing has always been better for me in NH, particularly in the fall. So I'm inclined to think F&G knows what they are doing.
I'm no expert, just one guy's understanding/opinions.

[s2ary]

It is rather a one sided fishery then. Not many fly guys troll for salmon in the summer.

Perhaps a better way to level the feild is to make the fall fishery FFO.

[BugChucka]

I don't believe it is a one sided fishery. We have designated rivers open to us with dense concentrations of fish that others are excluded from fishing. Does a barbless single hook spoon really hurt fish anymore than a sz. 6 bugger? I doubt it, but I can think of a couple fly fishing only stretches full of salmon. How about all the ponds and trout rivers? Is the revenue generated from flyfishermen proportional to the opportunities we have available? No. We have a bigger piece of the pie than we pay for. Without the trollers etc... I think it is reasonable to say that we wouldn't even have a salmon fishery. That's how I look at it. I have to remember that no one forced me to become a fly fisherman. I chose to become one.

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[Newfound]

I think Otter is right on. Our season is pathetically short The season should be extended for barbless hook fishing only. And barbless points should be required on ALL hooks. Its pretty obvious what kind of hook causes the injuries. Three gang treble hooks on crank bait lures hauled in by beer swilling, power bait chomping, right wing......oh..sorry. I mean how many hook injuries do you see on a trout in a fly fishing only pond. Few if any. The fish at some of these ponds must be caught dozens of times through the year. Its the method that causes all the problems. A longer season would be great, but more restrictions to protect the fish from damage should be in effect all year.

[bobo]

Otter mentioned: "In NH I do not believe any true spawning or reproduction actually takes place."

Is this true? Is the LLS population artificially supported by Fish and Game efforts? Like what occurs in the Salmon River in Pulaski NY, where salmon are harvested, stripped and eggs cultured then released.

If so, how is the argument against extending the season justified? And where does the injury argument fit in?

[Gerry]

bobo, check the Fish and Game stocking reports. Here is the one for 2009: http://www.wildlife.state.nh.us/Fishing/fish_stocking_report_2009.html
I didn't do more than a quick assessment, but it looks like around 40,000 1+ year old landlocked salmon are stocked, with Winnie getting the bulk: 27,350.
Good luck getting anything changed. An extended season and a barbless, single hook point rule is way overdue.

[fishin jimmy]

NH Fish & Game whines about less licenses sold & with their archaic policies wonder why people either go elsewhere, or just plain quit the sport. I live close to Massachusetts - Hey, its fishing all year long! Streams are heavily stocked & if I want to go after LL long after the NH season is closed, I'll do it down there.

[OTTER]

I was just going over some old fishing notes. Can you believe I actually have one in front of me dated 1961. Here it is:

" I frequently use barbless hooks on streamer flies and snip off hooks on many-hooked lures so that fish are unharmed when they are released."

I forgot that I had already been doing that 50 years ago. ( OK Stop Bragging!) But NHF&G, it is now 2011. This is not a new revolutionary idea. Isn't it time to outlaw trebles for everyone trolling for salmon in the big lakes.